xadmar
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Post by xadmar on Mar 29, 2017 20:34:19 GMT
I have a case of old man syndrome. I picked up Nemo 1 in an eBay lot and found his rules really interesting. I have put him on the table several times but always felt he was missing something to be competitive. His reliance on having his own models cast spells for power tokens caused positioning issues. His feat can be worthless into Storm Division and Krueger 2. Does Heavy Metal give him the tools he needs to be competitive? What kind of list complements him? Can he bring a list that competes with Electrobots damage?
Refresher on his rules. He can get up to 3 power tokens when a model casts a spell inside his control range which are then converted to focus next turn bringing him up to 10 or 11 with squire. His jacks can take 4 focus instead of 3. And to top it off he can increase his control range for the round by 2 inches per point of focus spent at the Control Phase before allocating focus. He has Chain Lightning, Deceleration, Lightning Shroud, Locomotion, and Voltaic Snare. Feat hits enemy warbeasts and warjacks in Nemo's control range with a POW 14 electrical damage roll. Warjacks suffer disruption if damaged.
With Heavy Metal adding 2 inches to deployment and giving solos re-position it means they can feed Nemo power tokens and still advanced further up the table. Nemo has the focus to fuel quite a few jacks. He can buff their damage output via Lightning Shroud and extra focus. He can increase their threat range by up to 3 inches via Locomotion. Increase armor vs ranged attacks through Deceleration. Clear jamming or incorporeal units with Chain Lightning. Voltaic Snare makes jacks easier to hit, -4 DEF, and stops run, charges, slams, and tramples.
Down sides of Nemo... Old man stats SPD MAT RAT 5 ugh, DEF 14, ARM 15 and a Hugeeee amount of hit boxes at 15. Many of his tools work best vs Warmachine. Most of his tools are electric so bad into anything electric immune.
Some good interactions with jacks. Dynamo can boost all 4 of his shots. Stormwall can boost to hit and damage on his main guns. Minuteman with 4 focus and Lightning Shroud is great at medium or small base throws from 14 and a half inches away.
I have run this list with him a few times and I have done well with it.
War Room Army
Cygnar - Nemo1 Heavy 1
Theme: Heavy Metal
4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Commander Adept Nemo - WJ: +30
- Squire - PC: 0
- Stormwall - PC: 39 (Battlegroup Points Used: 30)
- Lightning Pod
- Lancer - PC: 10
- Dynamo - PC: 18
- Ironclad - PC: 12
- Minuteman - PC: 9
Captain Arlan Strangewayes - PC: 0
Journeyman Warcaster - PC: 0
- Charger - PC: 9
Lieutenant Allison Jakes - PC: 0
- Firefly - PC: 8
THEME: Heavy Metal
---
GENERATED : 03/29/2017 14:06:33
BUILD ID : 2038.17-03-15
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Post by snarlyyow on Mar 30, 2017 16:44:48 GMT
It seems interesting. Nemo1 looks like a caster that's right on the cusp of being really good. The feat being boostable is interesting, especially with Fireflies in tow that make autohitting POW16s a real thing. You also can't put enough stock into things like Decel, which is a great spell in general, and Nemo1 can stack it on himself with Arcane Shield; suddenly a 14/20 stat line against guns seems legit, doesn't it? I wish his kit wasn't aimed so squarely at Warmachine, like if Voltaic Snare worked on beasts or any model this would be totally different and ball breaking. But for 2 cost? Hot damn.
Also, I think he's pretty playable in Storm Division as well. Decel is a spell that Stormlances and Stormblades love.
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Post by Phoenixforger on Mar 30, 2017 20:35:52 GMT
Nemo1 would probably tempt me to play him if his feat did auto disruption, and if Cygnar had a unit that does magic attacks.
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Lamoron
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Post by Lamoron on Mar 31, 2017 6:22:25 GMT
I theory-machined Nemo1 as a counter for Una2 before the nerf. I never got to play him into Una2, but I did end up facing a Skarre1 list with four Stalkers. So I'm going to feat, and do 3d6+1 on all your Stalkers then... no wait, I can run in a Firefly, 3d6+3 on three of them.
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Post by Sir Mythos on Mar 31, 2017 6:31:39 GMT
I'm waiting for April to bring the Old Man back to table. I like his first incarnation - and your list with it. I'm looking forward to try him with a Hurricane. A second Arc Node would be good.
Maybe in that case, you could switch the Lancer for a Firefly since a second one is always good. And with the 2 points left, upgrade the Ironclad to a Reliant since the KD is in the case on the Guns of the Hurricane. ;D
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xadmar
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Post by xadmar on Mar 31, 2017 14:29:38 GMT
I'm waiting for April to bring the Old Man back to table. I like his first incarnation - and your list with it. I'm looking forward to try him with a Hurricane. A second Arc Node would be good. Maybe in that case, you could switch the Lancer for a Firefly since a second one is always good. And with the 2 points left, upgrade the Ironclad to a Reliant since the KD is in the case on the Guns of the Hurricane. ;D I have not really done much theory crafting with the Hurricane. Having a second Arc node would be pretty awesome. With four focus you can boost damage on all four shots too!  A second FF could really help against troop heavy lists. I don't own a reliant so I would likely do something where if I dropped the lancer to a FF I would possibly change the charger on Jr for a hunter. I'd have to give it some thought. In the few games I have played with the list I was running my lancer all over the place for coverage. |
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Post by 36Cygnar24Guy36 on Mar 31, 2017 14:50:34 GMT
Played a few games with him at the start of Mk3, his feat is absolute gravy against Warmachine, can pretty much act as a time-walk against really jack heavy builds
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gmonkey
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Post by gmonkey on Mar 31, 2017 20:54:38 GMT
You're speaking my language, talking about my favorite caster. I love to talk about Nemo1. So let me look over the questions you added in your first post.
Positioning issues? Like what? Keeping models within Nemo's massive control area shouldn't be tough. Also, since he can expand his control area, it's not impossible to use the enemy's spellcasting to get power tokens.
You are absolutely right. I've played plenty of those matchups. Relying on his feat isn't always doable. I've had many a Nemo1 game where I've just got to accept that I have no feat.
I can see an argument to be made for that, and I've looked at a Heavy Metal list, but there are just too many models outside theme that I love with Nemo. Specifically Thorn and the Tactical Arcanists. I resisted the TAC for so long, but in the end having that cloud wall to hide behind, even for just a critical round or two, is very nice. And I don't think I need to do much selling on Thorn.
I'd love to try out a Minuteman on Nemo1 sometime. I haven't used that jack in quite a while, and I love the idea about Lightning Shroud helping his throws. I'm currently using Centurian/Hammersmith/Dynamo, so it's hard to find the points.
Deceleration is amazing, and Chain Lightning is situationally brilliant, but his best spell is Locomotion. You can pull such crazy order-of-activation shenanigans. I recently locomoted Dynamo back to the extreme melee range of a couple Man-O-Wars so that another heavy could charge in and unjam Dynamo, who was then able to one-round Scrapjack. My opponent was flummoxed that I was able to unjam Dynamo. Thanks, Locomotion!
I've never gotten good use out of Voltaic Snare, although I do try to keep it in mind. I've also taken a Firefly but never remembered to get it in place to boost damage on the feat. Guess I still haven't mastered my favorite caster.
I've got more to say, but I'm going to post this because I'm worried about my browser timing out and me losing this post.
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gmonkey
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Post by gmonkey on Mar 31, 2017 21:10:34 GMT
Nemo1 started clicking for me when I came to one critical realization: Locomotion, combined with the Centurian's polarity field and possible use of Voltaic Snare, lets Nemo control threat ranges and nearly always get the alpha strike. With four focus, it's a GOOD alpha strike.
It's all about two things: Jacks, and the right support. If you're in theme, your support is very limited. The two journeyman casters, and Arlan. Out of theme, you've got Lanyssa, whose Hunter's Mark helps even more with the abovementioned threat range control. You've also got Ragman, whose death field is even more useful when you've got the extra attack that 4 focus provides. Against Hordes armies, I really like bringing Rorsch and Brine, who can potentially grant Nemo more than a single power token per turn and have tons of movement shenanigans of their own. Arlan is a really nice addition, because he can bring Nemo's squire-increased focus from 11 to effectively 12 per turn, which is insane. I literally had to purchase more focus tokens specifically for playing Nemo1.
For jacks, I've always preferred Centurian and Thorn, and recently added Hammersmith and Dynamo. I can see a great argument for Minuteman, although I've always leaned toward heavies, since when you're able to give four focus, you really want that hitting power. Before I was using Dynamo, I made really good use of a Defender with Nemo. Previous to that, I'd been taking an Ironclad, but switched to a Defender because there was always a round or two near the beginning of the game where the Ironclad wasn't doing much - in the same position, the Defender could shoot. Then, once it got up close, it would wreck cortexes. That being said, Dynamo is superior if only due to the bond.
Nemo ALWAYS wants a squire. 14" control is nice, but 16" is better. Especially when Nemo dies so easily. To that end, Nemo really wants a shield guard and a cloud or clouds. I always put a Sentinel on the journeyman to protect Nemo. If you place it in range of both Nemo and a forward heavy, you can potentially protect that heavy from Eiryss shots.
What else? Repair. With that many jacks, 3 or 5 points on a repair crew is a good investment. I personally spend 5 on min field mechanics and a gobber tinker. Lastly, something to snipe out support or deal with stealth solos. I include an Arcane Tempest Rifleman for this. Gun Mage Captain Adept is also a good choice.
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xadmar
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Post by xadmar on Apr 4, 2017 22:13:30 GMT
You're speaking my language, talking about my favorite caster. I love to talk about Nemo1. So let me look over the questions you added in your first post. Positioning issues? Like what? Keeping models within Nemo's massive control area shouldn't be tough. Also, since he can expand his control area, it's not impossible to use the enemy's spellcasting to get power tokens. I thought I had responded to this but I guess I did not. I appreciate your thoughts on Nemo 1 it sounds like you have played him a lot. I think this is mostly regarding TAC and Ragman now that I think about it a little more. Arlan a little bit as he has to be B2B to repair. Essentially your fueling models move their speed and cast. Rest of army runs. Second turn you maybe in charge range and Ragman is far behind where you want him to be able to participate. Arlan can't quite get to the model that's off center from him to do a repair. I have also tried to come up with a Storm Division list that I like and have found it challenging. With his only Infantry friendly ability being Deceleration I want to build him with Jacks. You could do Min/Max SL plus Ladder for 40 points. Then 24 points for two fireflys on Jr and Jakes. Then free Squire and Arlan. So you sit on 41 points for jacks on Nemo. I have typically liked a lancer to help with Locomotion (rng 6). I could see going with out but then your looking at 2 to 3 heavy's. You could drop it to one unit of SL but then your only getting 5 free points out of it so isn't HM better or maybe even Stryker 2 in Storm Division. IDK. |
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Post by 36Cygnar24Guy36 on Apr 5, 2017 8:16:32 GMT
xadmarThe solution is to run Heavy Metal, then Jakes, Junior and Arlan can all repo 3" forward after they have cast their spells
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gmonkey
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Post by gmonkey on Apr 5, 2017 12:57:26 GMT
Heavy metal definitely has a bunch of advantages. I see now what you're saying about positioning with the TAC. They're crazy slow, and if you're in a killbox scenario then getting them up the board far enough to stay ahead of Nemo on turn one could be tough, and you could easily be forced to sacrifice those power tokens for a turn, which would suck. I guess the choice there would either be to run them and get a token only from Jr's Arcane Shield, or walk them, pop smoke, and end the turn with them only 11-14" up the board. Hmm... now that I'm doing inches-math, that's probably not too big a deal even in a killbox scenario. Let's say the TAC end up 11" up on turn one. They can still walk and pop smoke on turn 2 and end up 15" up, which means Nemo can hide behind them and poke his nose through the killbox. He probably wants to be that far back anyway, depending on terrain.
I've got Ragman in the most recent iteration of my Nemo1 list because I think his +2 along with 4 focus on a jack could be really good. But Ragman is one of those models I haven't played enough to know how to use him well. Last time I used him, I couldn't get in range for Death Field, although I was able to use him to Bone Shaker a Man-O-War Shocktrooper out of formation to wreck a shield wall, which was nice.
As far as Arlan and repair, I guess I nearly never use him for repair, but that's probably because I nearly always bring field mechanics with Nemo. The repair is no doubt situationally useful (I did use Arlan's repair in the most recent game I played) but I'm nearly always using him for focus, since that basically means Nemo can camp an extra focus, and Nemo's biggest problem is being assassinated. He can grant focus from something like 7" away after walking 5", so keeping him a foot from your jack shouldn't be too hard.
Discussing Warmachine while at work is like a glass of cold water on a hot summer day.
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Post by 36Cygnar24Guy36 on Apr 5, 2017 13:18:53 GMT
gmonkeyBone Shaker for Ragman triggers on boxed, not on hit, unless you meant that you killed him with Ragman? I think once the StormStrider has gone through CID Nemo 1 will have a new best buddy. A durable huge base to hide behind, that benefits well from Deceleration, and that provides an accuracy buff to the mandatory Dynamo
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gmonkey
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Post by gmonkey on Apr 5, 2017 16:05:45 GMT
Bone Shaker for Ragman triggers on boxed, not on hit, unless you meant that you killed him with Ragman? Yeah. I killed him with the boneshaker, at which point I was able to walk him over and murder a different model (Gobber Tinker) thus leaving the two Man-O-Wars that had been next to him without a shield wall. |
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Post by snarlyyow on Apr 7, 2017 0:52:52 GMT
So I've been playing this list with Nemo1 and really liking it:
Nemo1
-Squire
-Lancer
-Firefly
-Firefly
-Stormclad
-Centurion
-Dynamo
Jr.
-Firefly
Arlan
Jakes1
-Stormclad
This is a hard hitting list with a substantial amount of guns. It feels really powerful. Earlier today I killed two Hyperions in a single turn. It really wrecks a lot of face.
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gmonkey
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Post by gmonkey on Apr 7, 2017 13:29:52 GMT
Nice variant. Stormclads are always a solid choice. All the fireflies also makes me wonder if you're playing into a more infantry-heavy meta than I see here.
That list with two Stormclads makes me want to find a way to squeeze in some kind of storm knight, as he'd provide two free focus. In my meta, I'd drop a firefly for a stormblade captain and a min field mechanics unit.
The other thing is that if you hit a round where Arlan wants to repair and you want to fully fuel Jakes's Stormclad, you're really short on power tokens. Nemo's power token demands are always a tricky element in both playing him and listbuilding for him.
As I think more on it, Jakes with Nemo1 is odd, and I can't decide whether it's really good or really bad. On one hand, she's got similar movement shenanigans (locomotion vs energizer) which allows her to extend threat along with Nemo and spread the focus expense. And adding her 4 extra focus to Nemo's already huge focus pool means you're drowning in focus. (muahahaha!) But I'd worry that Jakes would have a target painted on her back. She's got to get within 8-10" of melee if the Stormclad engages, and if she's taken out you lose a power token provider and a Stormclad. I'd worry about keeping her safe, but maybe that's just because I'm not that good a player. ;-)
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Post by snarlyyow on Apr 7, 2017 16:15:50 GMT
Nice variant. Stormclads are always a solid choice. All the fireflies also makes me wonder if you're playing into a more infantry-heavy meta than I see here. No. Not really. I'm not sold on 3 Fireflies but I think two is kind of awesome. Then you have 8 more points and, hey, another firefly. They really get some mileage out of the feat and buffing dynamo all game and contesting flags and stuff. Nemo's feat is electrical damage, so having some auto-hitting boostable POW16s is kind of sweet. I didn't say so but that list is Heavy Metal theme so no storm knights. It's pretty wonky after turn 1 to keep Nemo full of tokens. It's pretty rare that I get more than 2 tokens. Usually Jr. Upkeeps AS and casts a random Arcane Bolt from the back of the table. Arlan will power booster. But Jakes can't really cast a spell and fuel the stormclad. It's really good. I was playing a 3 colossal Helynna list the other day and killed 2 colossals in a single turn. Between a lightning Shrouded Stormclad, Jakes' Clad, and Dynamo I totally wasted 2/3rds of my opponents list. It's great. |
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gmonkey
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Post by gmonkey on Apr 7, 2017 19:59:46 GMT
It's pretty wonky after turn 1 to keep Nemo full of tokens. It's pretty rare that I get more than 2 tokens. Usually Jr. Upkeeps AS and casts a random Arcane Bolt from the back of the table. Arlan will power booster. But Jakes can't really cast a spell and fuel the stormclad. This is a big reason why I don't play Nemo in theme. I love having fun models along for the ride like Lanyssa and the TAC. I've got no delusions that Nemo is the most competitive caster out there, but then again, I'm not the most competitive player, so it's a good match. :-) It's really good. I was playing a 3 colossal Helynna list the other day and killed 2 colossals in a single turn. Between a lightning Shrouded Stormclad, Jakes' Clad, and Dynamo I totally wasted 2/3rds of my opponents list. It's great. Wow. I'd like to see a battle report on that one. Sounds pretty epic. |
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xadmar
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Post by xadmar on Apr 7, 2017 20:49:57 GMT
I have found that with using a Stormwall Jr anchors around him and just recasts AS every turn. Seems a little silly but it has worked out okay so far. I always fear putting bigger jacks on any of the jr casters or even multiples on them as it increases the impact if they are taken out. Olannon has been having great success with the Stormclad on Jakes1 but I wonder how much that has to do with Darius's spell so he can retreat 5 inches plus 2 from energize.
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Lamoron
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Post by Lamoron on Apr 8, 2017 10:31:31 GMT
It's the third token which is hard to get. Recast AS every turn (1), Arlan easily generates one each turn, but the last means Jakes has to Energizer or Sidekick.
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Lamoron
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Post by Lamoron on Apr 8, 2017 10:32:35 GMT
I have found that with using a Stormwall Jr anchors around him and just recasts AS every turn. Seems a little silly but it has worked out okay so far. I always fear putting bigger jacks on any of the jr casters or even multiples on them as it increases the impact if they are taken out. Olannon has been having great success with the Stormclad on Jakes1 but I wonder how much that has to do with Darius's spell so he can retreat 5 inches plus 2 from energize. I've run many jacks on Jakes1, from Stormclads to Thunderhead... Jakes dying is not the problem. |
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Post by snarlyyow on Apr 11, 2017 5:04:38 GMT
It needs more testing but I'm 5-0 with Nemo1 in 2017. He seems better than expected. Stuff like heavies with 4 focus and lightning shroud, and dynamo with 3 focus, just change how hard you hit turn after turn.
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Post by Sir Mythos on Apr 11, 2017 9:01:55 GMT
snarlyyow: I like your list and properly will take it out for some testing. But i'll change the Firefly on the Journeyman into a Sentinel, since Nemo1 likes having a Shieldguard around.
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Post by Sir Mythos on Apr 12, 2017 6:42:33 GMT
I tried it yesterday with the suggested change of the Journeyman-Firefly to a Sentinel.
The list is fun to play. I had two games with it, one against Raznik2 which a lost due to bad play from me and bad luck with the dice. With a bit more experience with this list, the match up is totally fine. The second game was against a Lylyth2-Teraph list, which d dominated very much. Had a lot of luck with my dice, but it wouldn't have ended otherwise if i would have rolled average.
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Post by snarlyyow on Apr 12, 2017 16:30:25 GMT
I tried it yesterday with the suggested change of the Journeyman-Firefly to a Sentinel. The list is fun to play. I had two games with it, one against Raznik2 which a lost due to bad play from me and bad luck with the dice. With a bit more experience with this list, the match up is totally fine. The second game was against a Lylyth2-Teraph list, which d dominated very much. Had a lot of luck with my dice, but it wouldn't have ended otherwise if i would have rolled average. It's so strange because I can't disgaree with your choice of a Sentinel. I think it's unnecessary. He can be super far back and have Decel and Arcane SHield and still camp 2 or 3. He's hardier than he was in MKii by a long shot. I have a hard time thinking of a "wrong" list for him. Like, Trevy is playing him with Defenders and no Dynamo; it's probably fine. I'm debating taking out a Firefly and a Stormclad and swapping in an Ironclad and a Reliant, trade a heavy and a light for two heavies. And I'm not sure any of that is "wrong." It all seems just fine to me. Can you make a "bad" heavy metal list for this guy? I'm sure you could, it just feels like you'd have to go out of your way to make a bad one. |
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Post by sh55crovax on Apr 13, 2017 5:36:29 GMT
I tried it yesterday with the suggested change of the Journeyman-Firefly to a Sentinel. The list is fun to play. I had two games with it, one against Raznik2 which a lost due to bad play from me and bad luck with the dice. With a bit more experience with this list, the match up is totally fine. The second game was against a Lylyth2-Teraph list, which d dominated very much. Had a lot of luck with my dice, but it wouldn't have ended otherwise if i would have rolled average. It's so strange because I can't disgaree with your choice of a Sentinel. I think it's unnecessary. He can be super far back and have Decel and Arcane SHield and still camp 2 or 3. He's hardier than he was in MKii by a long shot. I have a hard time thinking of a "wrong" list for him. Like, Trevy is playing him with Defenders and no Dynamo; it's probably fine. I'm debating taking out a Firefly and a Stormclad and swapping in an Ironclad and a Reliant, trade a heavy and a light for two heavies. And I'm not sure any of that is "wrong." It all seems just fine to me. Can you make a "bad" heavy metal list for this guy? I'm sure you could, it just feels like you'd have to go out of your way to make a bad one. So I played this list tonight, changing the 3rd Firefly to a Charger and giving Jakes an Avenger. I really enjoyed it. I made a huge order of activation mistake turn 2, but was able to recover and get the win, barely. I haven't played Nemo1 in Mk.III before tonight, so I very nearly clocked myself. All that being said, I am certainly giving this list some more table time. |
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Post by Sir Mythos on Apr 13, 2017 7:49:10 GMT
Interesting idea. I'm thinking about dropping both Stormclads in favor of three Ironclads (one for Jakes), since i've enough anti infantry in the list. And i would trade +1POW/+1ARM for another heavy and a few KD Options. Could be worth the trade. I even thought of two Ironclads and a Hammersmith. Could be an interesting choice.
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Post by snarlyyow on Apr 13, 2017 15:30:30 GMT
Interesting idea. I'm thinking about dropping both Stormclads in favor of three Ironclads (one for Jakes), since i've enough anti infantry in the list. And i would trade +1POW/+1ARM for another heavy and a few KD Options. Could be worth the trade. I even thought of two Ironclads and a Hammersmith. Could be an interesting choice. Absolutely. I can see all of that as being legit. Locomotion really helps with the lack of Reach and sending in jack bullets is his game plan, so it seems totally doable. I'm not seeing loads of infantry in the meta, so a couple of fireflies really handle all of that, maybe Dynamo as well. I do wish Voltaic Snare also worked on Warbeasts, his kit feels too focused on Warmachine. I still think he can into Hordes if he has to, I'm not real certain that if you pair him right he'll need to. Haleys can pretty much handle all the Hordes duty and Khador, then you're dropping Nemo1 into the mirror, Coc, and maybe Mercs. |
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gmonkey
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Post by gmonkey on Apr 13, 2017 16:56:41 GMT
I lost a game with Nemo1 last night to Ossrum in theme with an Earthbreaker and 26 Forge Guard. Dynamo one-rounded the Siege Crawler, but Nemo got no feat since the Earthbreaker was the only jack. And while I took out most of the forge guard on their way in, it only took a small handful to wreck all my heavies (except the centurion) in one round.
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Post by snarlyyow on Apr 13, 2017 17:22:34 GMT
I lost a game with Nemo1 last night to Ossrum in theme with an Earthbreaker and 26 Forge Guard. Dynamo one-rounded the Siege Crawler, but Nemo got no feat since the Earthbreaker was the only jack. And while I took out most of the forge guard on their way in, it only took a small handful to wreck all my heavies (except the centurion) in one round. Yeah, I can definetly see mass high arm weapon-masters as being highly problematic for him. The EB can be hurt by the feat but it doesn't disrupt. It's part of Nemo's problem, there are certainly lists where his feat just screws over your opponent and it's a time walk with a bunch of free damage. Then there are other lists where it does literally nothing at all (Hey, Storm Division!). I'm not real certain what I think about the feat, one thing I know is that it will be demoralizing for someone, who that someone is though, you or your opponent, remains to be seen. |
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